User:Peteparker/Spider-Man

From Marvel Database

Danny says: well, I'll tell you my worldview -- and then you can see how I'm not on the same page with MDB Danny says: I dream of a world where you can go to the Marvel Database and type in Spider-Man Danny says: and you see a page about Spider-Man. Danny says: that's the core experience for an MDB reader. Danny says: you come to the site, you type in Spider-Man, and you get info on Spider-Man. Danny says: so there's a page called "Spider-Man" that has the basic info. Danny says: and then that page branches out into all of the million billion tiny little branches that you could take Danny says: so it branches into the different universes, and the different comics series, etc. Danny says: but you start at the top of that tree with the most basic overview, and then you can drill your way down through the site Danny says: and the more that you drill down, the more detailed and complicated it gets Danny says: so at the top there's just the basic level: Spider-Man, Wolverine, Hulk, Thor. This is who these guys are. This is what they look like, this is what they do, these are the comics they're in. Danny says: cause when a kid comes to the Marvel Database who's never seen a wiki before, he's going to type in the name of his favorite character Danny says: and he wants to see information about his favorite character. Danny says: at the moment, what he gets is a portal page with a whole bunch of very similar-looking pictures Danny says: and he has to decipher a whole lot of codes and things to find what he's looking for. Danny says: so here's the Spider-Man fan's flow... Danny says: you come to the main page, and you search for spider-man, which takes you here: Danny says: http://en.marveldatabase.com/Spider-man Danny says: which is a little off-putting. Danny says: but there's Peter Parker, sort of near the top of the page, so you click on the Peter Parker link... Danny says: http://en.marveldatabase.com/Peter_Parker Danny says: and you get another portal page, with a big table of contents Danny says: more pictures, more codes Danny says: you think, okay, well, I want the Peter Parker who's Spider-Man, right? Danny says: so you click on Spider-Man... Danny says: and you go back to the page you were just on. Danny says: to actually get to the page that you want, you have to hunt down through that and find the bit that says "The Original Peter Parker" and then click on the Peter Parker link Danny says: being careful not to click on the five links right below it that are in bolder print Danny says: and finally you get to the page you were looking for: Danny says: http://en.marveldatabase.com/Peter_Parker_%28Earth-616%29 Danny says: which is called Peter Parker (Earth-616). Danny says: Now I, the kid who has just come to MDB, has NO IDEA what Earth-616 means. Danny says: is this Spider-Man? or what? Danny says: is this an alternate universe Spider-Man? Danny says: and right at the top is a big blue box that says: "This page is similar in name or subject to other pages.

See also Peter Parker, Spider-Man, Captain Universe, Dusk, Hornet, Prodigy, Ricochet for a complete list of references to distinguish between these closely named or closely related articles." Danny says: I mean... Captain Universe? What the heck is that? Danny says: I typed in Spider-Man, and I want to see a page about Spider-Man. Danny says: this wiki puts at least three clicks in my way, a couple of scroll-downs and a lot of confusion in my way before I get to read my first sentence about Spider-Man: "Peter Parker was orphaned at the age of six when his parents were killed in an airplane crash overseas. " Danny says: so compare that with Muppet Wiki, where you can type "Kermit" into the search box, and you get: http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Kermit Danny says: a picture of Kermit, and an article about Kermit. Danny says: now, there are lots of different things that could be called "Kermit", and we've got them here: Danny says: http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Kermit_%28disambiguation%29 Danny says: and there's also a ton of books and albums and stuff that have "Kermit" in the title Danny says: but we figure, if somebody puts "Kermit" into the search box, then they want to see a page about Kermit and a nice picture of Kermit, and that's what we're going to give them. Danny says: ta-da! my theory. Danny says: I thank you. Nathan Elliott says: *I think* the idea was that the site would ask you at the level you inquired. You type in Spider-Man, but you're talking about the movie guy and don't care about the comic guy, it asks you by a disambig, which spider-man are you talking about? and generates interest in the others while you look for the one you want.

The two different disambigs are set up for the Spider-Men who are also named Peter Parker, and the Peter Parkers who are also named Spider-Man. Some Spider-Men aren't peter parker, and some aren't Spider-Man

And we still need a way to distinguish between which universe's spider-man is which

(Peter Parker from Earth-616 has changed his Code Name a bunch of times since 1963, and was even briefly Captain Universe as well)

(disambiguation) was thrown into the vote on the forums, and most people thought it looked disgusting.

So your general proposal is to have the main character's page, like Peter Parker (Earth-616) be moved to. . . Spider-Man? Nathan Elliott says: Sorry, I was trying to add more, and keep track as you went. Haha Danny says: My general proposal would be to have a page called Spider-Man that's about Spider-Man. Nathan Elliott says: I LOVE this kind of feedback. We desperately need it. Danny says: there's always going to be tons of little twisty exceptions and weirdness Nathan Elliott says: Good, you read fast. :) Danny says: because it's comic books Danny says: yeah :) Nathan Elliott says: we were trying to account for all those twisties Nathan Elliott says: and probably a group of 10 voted on it, Nathan Elliott says: and I started enforcing it Danny says: my theory is: when somebody types spider-man into the search box, they're looking for Spider-Man. Nathan Elliott says: which are they looking for? Danny says: I don't have to explain to you which version I'm talking about, or which universe, or whatever, because you know what I'm talking about. Danny says: You know. *Spider-Man*. Nathan Elliott says: The guy from the movie? Nathan Elliott says: or the comics? Danny says: *Spider-Man*> Nathan Elliott says: both? Nathan Elliott says: I get you, I really do. Danny says: you're the wiki, you tell me. Danny says: I want to see Spider-Man. Nathan Elliott says: I and I do agree. I've proposed this to the ominous others Danny says: you need to anticipate what I'm looking for, and give it to me. Nathan Elliott says: which is more popular, the movie guy or the comic guy? Nathan Elliott says: what if a movie just came out? Danny says: Spider-Man is more popular. Danny says: The concept goes beyond a particular version. Nathan Elliott says: ah, talking 'out of universe' then Danny says: what is the essence of the Spider-Man character, and the Spider-Man story? Nathan Elliott says: Great power begets Great Responsibility Danny says: Spider-Man is Peter Parker. He gets bitten by a spider. His uncle is killed by a criminal. Nathan Elliott says: kid, spider, uncle, suit, hitting people Danny says: He lives with Aunt May, he loves Mary Jane, he works for J. Jonah Jameson, Danny says: and he's Spider-Man. Nathan Elliott says: Those aren't true for the main guy Nathan Elliott says: or the comic guy, I mean Danny says: *you know what I mean.* Danny says: it's very easy for fans to get all fan-boy about everything Nathan Elliott says: sorry, devils advocate is probably why the site is frustrating Nathan Elliott says: especially the ultra-fan boys who do all the edits on the site Danny says: yup Nathan Elliott says: getting technical is like a peeing contest in comics, Nathan Elliott says: the more technical you can be, the more you're revered in the subject Danny says: you get so into the tiny little quirks and details that you lose sight of the fact that your readers are coming in and they're just looking for a page that tells them some interesting things about Spider-Man. Danny says: and seriously, if I was just talking to you, and I said, so I don't know a lot about Spider-Man, what should I know about him? Danny says: and you said, which Spider-Man? Danny says: then that's just a dumb answer. Danny says: because the whole point of me asking is that I don't know anything about him. Nathan Elliott says: I'd ask what you do know Danny says: that's what an encyclopedia article is supposed to be for. Danny says: I don't know much about the subject. Give me an overview. Danny says: Once I've mastered that, then it can branch out into the various sub-strands Nathan Elliott says: http://forums.marveldatabase.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=694&p=14570&hilit=naming+conventions#p14570 Nathan Elliott says: There's the discussion, a good 5 hours of reading if you're really interrested in it Nathan Elliott says: but I wouldn't recommend it Nathan Elliott says: A lot of the votes came down to what 'looks' best, according to where pages should be Danny says: yeah, we had the same kind of discussion here: Danny says: http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Mr._Snuffleupagus#Article_title.2C_again Danny says: but it was shorter, and we came to a common-sense conclusion. Nathan Elliott says: I think that has to do with the people who were discussing it Danny says: The Mr. Snuffleupagus article is called "Mr. snuffleupagus" Danny says: and not Aloyisus Snuffleupagus Wendy Peters says: because Alyosius?? Danny says: right. Nathan Elliott says: Interresting Danny says: Mr. Hooper is Mr. Hooper Danny says: not Harold Hooper Danny says: or Harold Hooper (Earth-616) Nathan Elliott says: What about Mister Hooper? Nathan Elliott says: why not that? Danny says: because when you type in Mr. Hooper, you want to see Mr. Hooper. Wendy Peters says: longer to type? Wendy Peters says: it might be a redirect actually Nathan Elliott says: probably is Danny says: oh,you mean Mister vs Mr.? Nathan Elliott says: i mean that it's the same, but slightly different Danny says: I dunno -- we could probably dig up examples of which ones were used Danny says: we did that for Dr. Teeth Nathan Elliott says: and slight differences can mean big things in comics Nathan Elliott says: I still hope you two realize that i'm not arguing against doing what you're proposing Danny says: no, of course -- it's all cool, we're not arguing or anything Nathan Elliott says: I'm just trying to represent the viewpoints of my people, and what they're gonna say to me as best as I can Danny says: I wouldn't even know how to propose this for MDB Wendy Peters says: can you tell he's been wanting to for awhile? Nathan Elliott says: Good. I do Nathan Elliott says: I can! Danny says: in my opinion, the way to cut through all the fanboy BS Danny says: is to have one simple common-sense message, and stick to that message Wendy Peters says: remember the alamo? Danny says: "The Spider-Man page should be about Spider-Man." Danny says: and no matter where the conversation goes, you come back to that as the touchstone Nathan Elliott says: There's a couple factors that truely prevent me from making these changes now Danny says: in their heart, everybody knows which Spider-Man is the real Spider-Man Nathan Elliott says: Every comic guy I know sees that as a confusing question Danny says: if it helps, think about it from the perspective of the ten-year-old Spider-Man fan Danny says: he's read some comics Wendy Peters says: or your wife Danny says: he's seen the movies, obviously Danny says: he has some coloring books, and a video game Nathan Elliott says: Funny you should mention that, Wendy, I asked her what she thought. Danny says: and his uncle gave him a big hardcover book with a lot of words that he didn't read, but he looked at all the pictures Wendy Peters says: (seriously? what a weird kid) Danny says: it had some panels from the earliest Danny says: comics, and covers and pictures of toys all the way up through the present Danny says: so he doesn't know many details, but he knows who Spider-Man is. Danny says: that kid types Spider-Man into your search box. Danny says: and your job is to not disappoint him. Danny says: I think that right now, that kid would be very confused and deeply disappointed. Nathan Elliott says: She had a suprising viewpoint. She said that she wouldn't go to the site if she didn't know anything about Marvel or Spider-Man. I was very shocked Danny says: and he would go somewhere else. Nathan Elliott says: comicvine.com Nathan Elliott says: or marvel.com Wendy Peters says: Actually, yeah. I'm with her. Wendy Peters says: I'd go to wikipedia, because I'd get a nice, upper-level overview of the character Wendy Peters says: without too much confusing stuff Wendy Peters says: and then I could hunt around and figure out what to call the one I wanted to know more about Wendy Peters says: and then I might be able to use MDB Danny says: yeah. Wendy Peters says: so why not create WP-style overviews of the character, hit the highpoints and then Wendy Peters says: have a link to the portals? Danny says: now that I'm looking at comicvine... that's *exactly* what MDB's Spider-Man page should be. Danny says: dag Danny says: that's just about perfect. Nathan Elliott says: With the comics trend changing, I, like many others, believe that 60% of comic readers are adults. and most of these adults are super-fanboys who aren't very social Nathan Elliott says: and can't even imagine what a 10 year old thinks Nathan Elliott says: unless they have one Wendy Peters says: but most of wikias readers are women Wendy Peters says: for whatever unknown reason Nathan Elliott says: makes me wonder how many MDB readers are women Danny says: Nathan, I agree about the 60% of mildly-autistic adults. Nathan Elliott says: Yea, comicvine is a big problem, but it isn't perfect either Danny says: I think right now, MDB is perfectly targeted at the mildly-autistic. Nathan Elliott says: Geez, I should take an autism test then.  :) Danny says: but I don't think it's serving the general population who wants to learn more about Marvel Comics. Nathan Elliott says: notice how you said comics there Danny says: I think wikis can do both -- they can provide the basic info for the person off the street, and *then* dig down deep into all the details. Danny says: yeah, comics Danny says: aren't we talking about comics? Nathan Elliott says: the argument could be made that if you search for Spider-Man, you should see the Main spider-Man comic character, Nathan Elliott says: the 616 character Nathan Elliott says: and nothing else first Nathan Elliott says: Then you see pictures of that, and dont' read anything about how Doctor Octopus was his friend before he became a villain, Nathan Elliott says: and you're like, who is this? This is wrong, I should add that Nathan Elliott says: but you'd never look farther to find the spider-man you're talking about Nathan Elliott says: if it was a link or something Danny says: why wouldn't you? Nathan Elliott says: because you wouldn't know they were different Nathan Elliott says: don't most people think that spider-man is spider-man? Nathan Elliott says: that all spider-men are the same? Wendy Peters says: yes. Danny says: but Spider-Man is Spider-Man Nathan Elliott says: Than why are they different? Danny says: they're not. Nathan Elliott says: why is the movie so different from the comics? Danny says: it isn't. Nathan Elliott says: why is Spider-Man 2099 different from the main guy? Danny says: who cares? Danny says: see, this is the thing Danny says: that stuff only bothers the superfans Wendy Peters says: Ok, so instead of the page you have now, which makes it impossible to figure out what's what (it would take me a month of sundays to realize that spider-man-616 is the most common) Danny says: to most people, Spider-Man is Spider-Man Danny says: the guy in the movie is the same as the guy in the newspaper comic strip Danny says: and the same as the guy on the Spider-Man sheets in K-Mart Danny says: it's Spider-Man Wendy Peters says: Why not have a page that has an overview of the commonalities in spider-mans at the top, with a picture of 616 Wendy Peters says: and then a big table which lists the variants with a sentence or two explaining the most crucial differences or where it appeared Wendy Peters says: and links off to spider-man- 2099 or whatever Nathan Elliott says: That's where we have to go to clear this up Danny says: these are iconic characters -- there's a life and a personality in them that is essential to the character Nathan Elliott says: A page before the disambig Danny says: and I think if you lose sight of that, then it's like pinning butterflies to the wall Nathan Elliott says: with simple iconic stuff, that links to the disambig page and the main pepole Danny says: you have them all labeled and stuck there, but they're all dead and disassembled and they're not alive and fun anymore. Wendy Peters says: with short descriptions beyond 616 and 2099 to explain who they are Danny says: MDB is not a very fun wiki to read. Nathan Elliott says: Ah, beauty metaphor Danny says: between Marvel and DC, you're writing about some of the best characters ever Wendy Peters says: and maybe a link called "What's this 616 stuff anyhow?" somewhere nearby to explain about Marvel's ideas on disambig Danny says: Superman! Spider-Man! BatMan! Wolverine! Danny says: They mean something to people. They're amazing ideas that have grown over decades into something beautiful. Danny says: Your wiki is an amazing window into the multi-faceted, complicated world of those characters. Danny says: So your wiki should have a lot of heart. Danny says: And right now it really feels like it doesn't. Nathan Elliott says: Wendy - we try to put descriptions at the bottom of each box, but being autistic-mild, we loose sight of those quickly. and that's Multiverse Danny says: It feels very cold and complicated, like you thought you were walking into an amusement park and instead you find an office building where you don't know which floor you're on. Danny says: anyway -- that's all the metaphors I have right now. Ed wants to have dinner. So I'll leave you guys to go and be beautiful, and I'll talk to you later